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What a tragey that certain folks are not thinking how investments are used and why people invest in the UMC church programs. Do these folks think that congregants are going to continue to invest with the Church if their money is not going to grow as fast as it should..Who wants a rate equal to what the banks are giving now (.05%). I would challenge anyone to say that the Church and Society and any other up and coming organization speak for the WHOLE MEMBERSHIP of the United Methodist Church...if anyone has any doubts about the impact this and other proposals are having on the church, we have only to look at the reduced funding in all the Conferences/Jurisdictions..Congregants will speak with their purses whenever a policy is instituted that they do not like or will support.....(note I say WHOLE MEMBERSHIP, not the staff or Conference members, whose votes do not necessarily represent their local church interests)
For a Christian financial return is not the most important consideration, people is, their human rights. I dont want my money going to companies that are violating people's rights. I dont want my money going to companies that are making a profit out of detaining people. Church and Society is doing what their task is, as described in the BOD.
These companies are not violation anyone’s human rights, they are doing business with a ligament government the only free and democratic government in all of the Middle East. If the Palestinian terrorists want to enjoy long and healthy live perhaps they should consider not indiscriminately firing rockets into civilian cities and setting off homicide bombs in crowded restaurants and busses. If the Palestinian people ever want to be taken seriously as a peace partner perhaps they should consider stating off by acknowledging Israelis right to exist.
How many Palestinian Christians have you spoken with, Eric?
I have spoken with many Palestinian Christians, what has that to do with anything.
Oh but it does, Eric, since Palestinian Christians overwhelmingly support the BDS movement. Were all the Christians you spoke with "terrorists"? Do they all oppose Israel's right to exist, or do they simply oppose Israel's right to occupy outside its borders? Your generalization about "the Palestinian people" belies any real conversation. You seem to feel free to tell the Palestinians what to do, but don't evidence having truly listened to them first. Try it.
Well
I’ll tell you Mark, since the Palestinian Christians are unwilling or
unable to stop there fellow Palestinians from committing acts or terror
and war on there neighbor there opinion of the Israeli occupation relay
chances nothing. Israel is and has been under attack since
literally the very first day it was reestablish as a nation in 1948,
they do have a right to exist and they do have a right to be safe from
terrorist attacks. One of the many real tragedies here is that
Muslim terrorists and American liberals think its ok to hide behind
Palestinian Christians and scream but there on our side as if because
you found an ally in the region the Israelis should just slink away and
die.
I’m sure the Vichy French thought the American occupation of Europe was amoral too.
But we're people of faith, Eric Mueller, so the position of our Christian sisters and brothers in Palestine is very relevant here. This is commentary on a piece that ran in church media about a church discussion, so their position is important. This isn't a forum for Beer Pong or the Patriot Ordnance Factory. On the one hand you claim to have spoken with "many Palestinian Christians," yet you ask what that has " to do with anything," and then decry that " Muslim terrorists and American liberals" want to "hide behind" them. I'm dizzy, Eric Mueller. Who do we listen to here? There are several sides to this dialogue, and the Israeli military's perspective is well represented in the US political culture. Unfortunately, the voice of the poor is not heard as well. And until you really start listening to people on the ground, your perspective will be a distorted one. The position of everyday Israelis is important to hear, as well, including that of many who oppose the occupation, such as the ordinary Israeli women who smuggle Palestinians to the beach so they can have a few moments of pleasure at the seashore. But we must listen to Palestinian Christians, thousands of whome just this past week, for example, were denied access to Jerusalem to celebrate Easter, in many cases despite having received entry permits from the Israeli military. The head of World Vision wrote a scathing criticism of this denial of religious freedom. So, once again, Eric Mueller, how many Palestinian Christians have you spoken to, and what have they told you?
I agree. Let's just do away with the pension program. If we don't have funds to invest, it'll be much easier to avoid these poor investment decisions.
Positive investment, while not a comprehensive solution, is a constructive step that UMs can take to help build the economic and societal structures that could strengthen a future Palestinian state and make it a partner for peace. Singling out Israel or companies doing business with Israel for pressure through boycotts or divestment assumes that only one party can end the occupation. It will take both parties to work out a solution and we should be supporting an environment in which both parties can come to the table without being saddled unilaterally with blame.
United Methodists for Constructive Peacemaking in Israel and Palestine is advocating a response based on this belief. Our website is www.umpeace.squarespace.com.
Thanks for the reference to your website, which downplays the Palestinian experience of terror while emphasizing Israel's. Not surprisingly, you cite as a source the Israeli Foreign Ministry. Maybe you should try listening to the real testimony of people on the ground. If you did, you'd realize that your "Why can't we all just get along?" attitude isn't going to solve anything. The same way that approach resolved nothing in South Africa. Apartheid's end came when the world got serious about sanctions and divestment.
Palestine
is not a nation and has never been a nation. It has been an area ruled
by various groups over human history. More groups than there is
even room to list here. Arabs treat Palestinians as second class
citizens and as a buffer between themselves and Israel. Israel has
a right to much of the disputed land after facing past attacks from
Arabs. Israel also lives in constant threat of destruction, not
only from Arab nations, but more pointedly from the Persian country of
Iran.
The issues surrounding the Middle East are
complex and there are no easy answers or solutions. To demand
divestment in a company like Caterpillar because Israel buys equipment
from there is nearly nonsensical. The world is much too complex to
make such demands. Did anyone here know that in many counties in
the US Walmart is the number one seller of alcohol? Yet we remain
heavily invested in Walmart, because there are much more good products
at Walmart, and much more to Walmart than just alcohol sales.
I am not coming with solutions other than to ask that we prayerfully
remain in dialogue about how to ethically and morally invest.
Your inaction is no comfort to Palestinian families who've seen their homes demolished by Israeli bulldozers, ColtsFan. Sad how you seem more loyal to Walmart than to your Christian sisters and brothers in the Holy Land.
Actually, I have no great love for Walmart. Generally, just saying consumers can use the products of Walmart for good or for evil. I don't think Caterpillar makes an evil product or a good product. I believe their products to be morally neutral. I am NOT condoning or supporting the Israelis use of Caterpillar products in the manner they do. I just don't blame Caterpillar for the way Israel uses their products. The blame/responsibility lies with the user of the product.
The occupation is illegal. Caterpillar could refuse to sell bulldozers to be used by the Israeli military in illegal operations. Following your argument, it would have been ok for German Christians to invest in companies selling poisonous gas to the Nazis, gas that was used to kill Jews and homosexuals and gypsies. After all, the blame "lies with the user of the product," right Colts?
Mark,
your comparison is fallacious on several counts. 1) Israel is not
killing Palestinians with Caterpillar equipment. 2) I would imagine
that poisonous gas is not a morally neutral product.
Please read feslop above. Caterpillar does not sell equipment to Israel, but to our own government - who sends them as aid to many countries. Caterpillar has been faithful to work through GB Pensions & continues to dialogue through them. The US government will not lack for suppliers of bulldozers without Caterpillar. The US government will not cease its supply of bulldozers to Israel without Caterpillar. Caterpillar is a strong partner with our mission & support of UM in Liberia with donated generators & paying transportation of needed supplies to Liberia, for example.
The solvable solution is US government policy & practice changes. When we divest from these companies, we aren't hurting them, but losing our means of dialogue & influence.
The
occupation is not illegal; it is the logical outcome of constant
terrorist attacks on a sovereign nation by state sponsored terrorists.
It’s
really quite simple, the PA needs to get control of there people and
start jailing terrorists instead of having parades for them. They
need to drop there ridicules pre-condition and return to the peace table
and they need to acknowledge Israel’s right to exist. Don’t tell
me this won’t work, Egypt did these very things and Israel withdrew from
the Sinai Peninsula and has enjoyed 30+ years of peace.
The moral neutrality of a given product depends on a variety of factors, ColtsFan. If a bulldozer is used to destroy your home as part of an occupation which is illegal under international law, then it ceases to be morally neutral. Let's make it even simpler for you, since you seem to like sports. If I sell you a baseball bat, that's fine. Everyone loves baseball. But what if I sell you a baseball bat with full knowledge that you're going to march out of the store and smash people's houses with it and demolish their ancient olive orchards. Is that still fine? If you believe it is, then we've identified the problem.
Sorry,
Eric Mueller, but the occupation is indeed a violation of the Fourth
Geneva Convention. For example, concerning just the settlements on the
West Bank, the Fourth Geneva Convention states: "The Occupying
Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population
into the territory it occupies." This violation by the
government of Israel was confirmed by the International Court of Justice
in 2004:
http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/... Or are you the arbiter of what is illegal or not?
No need to apologize Mark, you can be wrong as often as you
like. You are discussing two different
issues. Issue one is the occupation of a
hostile nation by another nation in defense of its people and borders. This is indeed demonstrably and historically
legal as is the blockade to prevent the hostile nation from rearming and doing further
damage to the defending nation. The second issue is the settlement of land
outside of disputed borders. While
these settlements are almost certainly unhelpful to the peace process (insofar
as the PA is still holding out hope of the pre-war boarders being honored), the
boarders are as described in dispute and therefore unenforceable and subject to
negation at the peace table. The sooner
the PA comes to the peace table the sooner these issues can be resolved and Israel
can abandon or continue with their settlements as both sides agree. The conclusion that the ICC reached was based
on several false assumption that A. they have jurisdiction to rule on these
issues B. even if they do have jurisdiction they have any power to enforce the ruling
and C. Israel will ever agree to recognize the pre-war boarders.
Whoaa. Motorola, H-P and Cat sell nothing to Israel. The Obama administration, continuing the policy of the Bush era and previous administrations, makes major purchases under existing foreign aid practices and gives the products to Israel. The appropriate target for range on the oppression of the Palestinians is the Obama administration for its policies, its purchases and its support of Israel. The GC resolution needs to call for a change in our foreign policy or the election of leaders who would stop such gifts to Israel. Why is this not even mentioned in the resolution?
Israel is the only country in the middle East where the Christian population is growing, and enjoys full civil and human rights. Bethlehem, under palestinian control was once 100% Christian- now its 80% Muslim. The Christians, including the Egyptian Copts(the descendants of Pharonic Egyptians- the idigeneous of Egypt) are being forced out of islamic countries. The situation in the Middle East is so complicated- this resolution does not promote peace- what promotes peace is more engagement- more ties- closer ties. Thats what we should be working on
The
problem with this argument is that it's not true. Christians who are
emigrating from the West Bank are doing so mostly because of the
economic impact of the Israeli occupation. See, for example, this
article in an Israeli newspaper:
http://www.haaretz.com/news/na...
Fatima, this is false. Please check your sources and consider restating your post. Christians are leaving in droves due to oppression and unemployment due to the apartheid wall. Please check out the article in Time magazine in the past year that gave excellent exposure to the crisis. This supplements my personal experience with Lutheran Christians in the West Bank. Full civil and human rights?! There are seminary students in Bethlehem that are not permitted to travel to Church of the Holy Sepulchre to visit holy sites, while tourists move freely. Palestinian Christians are being oppressed. Some are leaving for Jordan where there is a better life for Christians. Jordan is a more welcoming country?! We must stand with our fellow Christians, and speak the truth to Israel, as the biblical prophets did long ago.
Here is excellent insight into the disingenuous claim that the Christian population of Israel is growing, from a response by Palestinian church leaders to statements made by the Israeli ambassador to the U.S.
"In fact, the percentage of Christians in the area began to decrease in 1948 when the creation of Israel caused a large portion of the Palestinian Christian population to become refugees. The exaggerated growth of the Christian population in Israel that you claim is due primarily to the immigration of Russian Christians whom Israel was unable to distinguish from the Jewish immigrants pouring into the country after the fall of the Soviet Union. It is not due to any accommodation for the indigenous Palestinian Christian population, which is victim to an ongoing displacement policy implemented by your government."
I for one support Israel as the closest in the Middle East aligned with US interest. Muslims want Christians destroyed. Using third world tactics, they deal with conflict through terrorism. There has never been a Palestinian state. These lines were drawn by the United Nations. With that said, all have the right to their private opinions. My problem is with church bureaucrats speaking for the whole denomination and making policy for all. Not only do they want to make policy, they belittle contradictory opinions. So the tolerant Methodist have become non-tolerant. Are they right and I am wrong? When a church decides what we have to think, they limit their congregation to only those that agree with them. The UMC needs to step away from making blanket statements and pushing political policies. Preaching morality and leading discussions is one thing, but becoming a lobbyist group that plays to the media for such a diverse spiritual membership is wrong.
"Third world tactics"? "Muslims want Christians destroyed"? According to your website, aren't you really referring to your great grandfather's tactics when he moved into Indian land in Texas?
I am a retired Methodist Minister. I was former
Chairman of the Methodist Youth Section of the MYF, Chairman of Worship and
Evangelism and have preached around the world. I was given a Doctoral of
Political Science degree at Chung-Ang
University by the President for bringing diplomatic exchange between China and
South Korea. I mention this in order to give some credibility to the following:
First I am against our church taking a position in this matter. We are only
adding to the division not Unity. Second, let us use all the influence we have
to bring both parties to a serious solution at a Peace Table. Thirdly,
regardless of the fact that our President has not honored our long friendship
with Israel and has brought a large number of Palestinians to this country at
the expense of the tax payers...we need not compound the present strain between
out country. Also, there should be a much more in depth presenta