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United Methodists see Occupy protest ties

 
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3:00 P.M. ET Nov. 10, 2011



Participants in a candlelight vigil at Occupy Oakland join in solidarity of free speech for the Occupy Wall Street movement. A UMNS photo by Kathleen Barry.
Participants in a candlelight vigil at Occupy Oakland join in solidarity of free speech for the Occupy Wall Street movement. A UMNS photo by Kathleen Barry.
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They may have begun as a protest against corporations and greed, but for a growing number of United Methodists taking part in the Occupy Wall Street movement, the protests are a statement about the spiritual bankruptcy of materialism as well as a call to transform the world.

“This movement articulates [our call] for a more just society,” said the Rev. Sandy Gess, pastor at St. Paul’s United Methodist Church in Vacaville, Calif., and a long-time resident of Oakland. “The numbers of people who are homeless, unemployed, living on the streets are finding a community [in encampments] where they get assistance, a spiritual home, and have a voice — those of us in the clergy, who really speak on behalf of our spiritual leader, Jesus the Christ, who always advocated for the poor.”

The seed of the Occupy Wall Street movement was planted this summer by the Canadian-based magazine, Adbusters. The magazine called for a peaceful occupation of Wall Street to call attention to the role of banks and multinational corporations in the democratic process and Wall Street’s role in the economic downturn. Demonstrators gathered Sept. 17 in Zuccotti Park in Manhattan’s Financial District. According to the Occupy Wall Street website, the movement has spread since to more than 100 cities in the United States and more than 1,500 cities globally.

The Occupy movement reflects the tremendous frustration of people, especially young people, with the severe polarization of the U.S. political system and growing gap between the rich and the poor, said Jim Winkler, the top executive of the United Methodist Board of Church and Society.



Nathan Bunce (center) holds a cross from the altar of the Church of the Village during a gathering of United Methodists at Occupy Wall Street.  On either side of Bunce is Pastor Vicki Flippin and Dwight Cambell, who are holding pita bread communion. A UMNS photo by Melissa Hinnen.
Nathan Bunce (center) holds a cross from the altar of the Church of the Village during a gathering of United Methodists at Occupy Wall Street. On either side of Bunce is Pastor Vicki Flippin and Dwight Cambell, who are holding pita bread communion. A UMNS photo by Melissa Hinnen.
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“Occupy Wall Street is taking it to the financial heart of the country,” he said. “There’s a moral component to it that’s grabbed the attention, not just of this country, but (also) of the whole world.”

Winkler said the viral spread of the movement through the Internet and social media, such as the Methodists@OWS on Facebook, clearly shows the Occupy movement has struck a nerve. Many of their concerns echo the historical ministries and mission of John Wesley’s Methodist Movement.

Though Winkler does not suggest Occupy Wall Street is motivated by Wesleyan teachings, he does find many similarities between the United Methodist Social Principles and the protestors’ grievances, which were articulated in the Sept. 29 “Declaration of the Occupation New York City.” The statement included a call to living cooperatively, creating a just economy, providing livable wages, environmental justice, and the value of human life over the profits of corporation.

“In our Social Principles, we claim all economic systems are under the judgment of God,” said Winkler. “The Occupy forces are really challenging the very tenets of capitalism and asking whether or not it’s the best system. In our Social Principles, we say corporations are responsible not only to their stockholders but to their other stakeholders.

“I think that’s what you’re hearing--a demand for corporate social responsibility,” he said.



The Rev. James Karpen<BR/>
A UMNS photo by John Goodwin.
The Rev. James Karpen
A UMNS photo by John Goodwin.
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Raising questions

For the Rev. James K. Karpen, pastor of the Church of St. Paul and St. Andrew United Methodist Church in Manhattan, the Occupy movement is raising questions the church has been asking forever.

“Questions about wealth and poverty,” Karpen said. “Questions about the way the economy is structured — who benefits from that, and who is hurt by that. These protests have changed the conversation in this country about these issues.”

The voice of faith in the Occupy movement has been visible. There’s even a web site, OccupyFaithNYC, for news and updates about faith-based events at Zucotti Park. The West Village’sJudson Memorial Church, affiliated with the United Church of Christ and American Baptist Church, was the site of an interfaith worship service Oct. 9. After the service, worshippers carried a paper mache golden calf — a symbol of greed and the worship of false idols to Christians, Jews and Muslims — through the streets to the statue of the Wall Street bull.

Similar interfaith services are going on throughout the country, according to Associated Press reports. Interfaith tents have been put up in Boston; Charleston, S.C.; Manhattan; Oakland; San Francisco; Philadelphia and elsewhere, offering space for prayers, meditations, conversations and training in nonviolent protests.

Karpen says the the Occupy Movement has welcomed the faith community.

“They seem to sense that when we are being true to our theological roots, we have their back. Wesley didn't sit in committee meetings; he went out to where the people were. And, he didn't shy away from the issues that were impacting their lives.

“If you read the gospels carefully, you see that Jesus had more to say about money than almost anything else,” he said. “And most of what he said is closer to what the Occupy movement is talking about than to the way we talk about money in most of our churches.”

A sacred space



A tent city in San Francisco is bordered by a sign reading, “We are the 99%.” A UMNS photo by Kathleen Barry.
A tent city in San Francisco is bordered by a sign reading, “We are the 99%.” A UMNS photo by Kathleen Barry.
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Gess has been a key organizer of a coalition of clergy in support of Occupy San Francisco, and is part of the Occupy Oakland movement.

“There is an organic spirituality with the Occupy Movement — there is a privilege as clergy to participate and learn from this and share our values without proselytizing,” she said. “I’ll sit and meditate and if someone wants prayer, I’ll offer prayer.”

The faithful aren’t just huddled on the sidelines in tents. Clergy and laity are walking among the encampments, praying with people, offering help, actively taking part in the action committees and working groups that help the general assemblies that govern the movements and help shape goals and organization.

Donning her clerical collar, the Rev. Vicki Flippen, pastor at the Church of the Village United Methodist Church in New York, went to the encampment at Zuccotti Park, renamed Liberty Plaza by the movement.

“If God is doing something in your backyard, you should go check it out,” she said.



The Rev. Sandy Gess<BR/>
A UMNS photo by Kathleen Barry.
The Rev. Sandy Gess
A UMNS photo by Kathleen Barry.
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To Flippen, God is very much present in the movement.

“I really believe God works outside of the church and feel that God is doing something here in Zuccotti Park, and throughout the world. For me, it’s a model of what church should be: a community of people who come together and say there’s something off, something broken. They have this vision of the world that says we can make it better.

“That’s why I think it’s important to know what’s going on and to be comfortable being there,” she said. “It’s very important for this generation of the church to think about what it means to be Christian and resisting injustice."

A member of Park Presidio United Methodist Church in downtown San Francisco, Adrienne Fong said she believes “the Occupy movement has been an awakening for all consciences. It has also shown what we can do when we all work together.”

Fong, who is active in Occupy San Francisco, said the activity is “a reflection of the Wesleyan tradition of social activism. It is about people seeing and acting beyond themselves. It is about people caring what happens in our world and standing for what is right.”

Meeting needs

The interfaith community and local congregants have been meeting the practical needs of the occupiers as they respond to the spiritual needs.

The reaction to that presence has been powerful, she said. “The people who were occupying, those who may have been wounded by Christianity — or churchianity, as I call it — have said, ‘Wow, these people really care.’

“I’m excited about that,” she said.

Gess said the interfaith coalitions in San Francisco and Oakland are providing satellite centers for shelter, food, clothing and counseling. The interfaith community also offers training in nonviolent protests for the occupiers and for the police.

That’s particularly important in the wake of the disturbances in Oakland Oct. 25, Gess said.



Nov. 2nd Meditation Circle at Occupy Oakland is made up of members of many faiths, including (far right) Rev. Sandy Gess, pastor of St. Paul’s United Methodist Church in Vacaville, Ca. A UMNS web-only photo by Sandy Gess.
Nov. 2nd Meditation Circle at Occupy Oakland is made up of members of many faiths, including (far right) Rev. Sandy Gess, pastor of St. Paul’s United Methodist Church in Vacaville, Calif.
A UMNS web-only photo by Sandy Gess.

“We’ve witnessed how the police respond, and we are going to see if we can get some training or facilitate training for the police so they are better equipped to deal with protesters,” she said. “I am on the core team of religious leaders who are active in being an ongoing spiritual presence at Occupy Oakland at the sacred tent which we have created, offer non-violence training on site, have ongoing meetings with Mayor Quan and city officials to help shape their decision-making, and peacefully stand between demonstrators and police.”

California-Nevada retired Elder Sharon Delgado, a founding member of Earth Justice Ministry, an interfaith non-profit committed to building a peaceful, just and sustainable world, spent some time on Wall Street with the Occupy Movement last month, and now works with the small Occupy Wall Street-Nevada County movement near Nevada City, Calif.

“The Occupy Movement gives me hope,” she said. “It seems to be an awakening to, not only the great dangers we face as a species, but also an awakening to the power we have in community if we worked together for peace and justice and a sustainable world. The (current) system is bankrupt, and the ideology that supports it is bankrupt.

“As Christians, I believe that we need to speak to that to say it is idolatrous, that it’s unjust, that it’s not meeting the needs of the vast majority of the people in the world — not just in the U.S.,” she said.

Winkler encourages local church members to think about taking food or other supplies to the encampments and talk to the protesters, “get a feel for themselves about whether or not they think this [movement] is valid.

“I hope church people will engage the occupy forces; there’s a lot there that is reflective of our social principles. In a sense, I wonder why the church wasn’t there in the first place,” he said.

*Brands is a freelance writer living in eastern Upstate New York. UMNS Photo Researcher Kathleen Barry also contributed to this story.

News media contact, Maggie Hillery, Nashville, Tenn. (615)-742-5470 or newsdesk@umcom.org

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Showing 66 comments

  • Frank Owen 1 comment collapsed Collapse Expand
    Wow. There is some serious disdain here for people willing to use social activism and social justice awareness (a long-time Methodist trait); and--of course--this tradition of spiritually-infused social justice goes all the way back to that rabble-rouser who turned over the tables of the money changers.

    You don't think Jesus would be at the Occupy rallies, teaching, preaching, praying, supporting? Sorry. If you think he'd be on a golf course, driving a Hummer, sitting at home in a leather chair watching FOXNews, or otherwise remaining uninvolved in trying to reform a system that is hurting people and going down the drains because of the criminality and greed of a select few, you are profoundly out of touch with what it really looks like when spirit is really on the move.
    It's really quite simple, folks. The Occupy Movement is NOT one group of people. There are people of all ages, all walks of life, all religious backgrounds, all ethnic backgrounds. Massive amounts of taxpayer money was handed over to big banks on Wall Street. Part of the intent of that was to stabilize the economy. However, another significant intent was for those banks to lend that money to get the economy going. They haven't. They've sat on it and given monstrous bonuses (again, with taxpayer money) to some of the very same individuals who wrecked a significant portion of this economy with its bundling practices and predatory lending. This is ONE of the reasons why people are taking to the streets.There are also a growing number of veterans who are taking to the streets because of their concern about the foreign policies this government is taking. There are now, on average, 1,000 suicides per month by returning servicemen. Some of this is related to PTSD. Some of this is related to economic stress.Another group taking to the streets are people who've lost their pensions through no fault of their own.

    Point being, this is a far more complex and far more diversified situation than, as one person said, a bunch of "hippies complaining." Hardly.

    As for the disdain I hear about taxing the rich. The push is not to get the rich to be unduly taxed, but to be taxed fairly. But, instead, the largest tax breaks of all go to that 1%...

    Wake up.

    Spoken-word poet, Drew Dellinger:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?f...

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  • WexfordBob 1 comment collapsed Collapse Expand
    Wow, what an awakening. It's time to leave the United Methodist Church for a chruch that believes Christ not economic and social struggles transform lives.
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  • redbillie 1 comment collapsed Collapse Expand
    Unfortunately, this is not what the majority of United Methodists support and you know it.  J. winkler is a progresssive,
    socialist and has been for many years, in spite of the congregations' who are not...and who foot the bills or leave the UMC.  Christian compassion also has to include tough love, not tresspassing, not asking for permits, following the laws, protesting in a way that is coherant and not full of drugs, sex, and stupidty.  Nor, does honest protest need the funding from the various Soros's organizations and Van Jones and the labor honchos...if it were an honest protest.  If it were, they would be petitioning the White House, the Congress and the Senate.  Perhaps some of those spoiled young adults should try looking for a job; pick some fruit or flip some hamburgers.
    Please pray about not tearing this nation apart and working together with each other!  Wake up Jim W., this is not the 60's with LSD and other excesses which are now common.  YOu hurt the church so much.
    Deeply disappointed in the bias and slant from UMSC,
    Billie Reynolds
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  • Dale Lature 1 comment collapsed Collapse Expand
    Putting the Protest Back in Protestant by Diana Butler-Basshttp://www.patheos....
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  • SoldierForChrist 1 comment collapsed Collapse Expand
    Perhaps these links will help shed some light on the leadership and goals of the Occupy Movement.
     
    http://my.firedoglake.com/davi...
     
    http://democracyandclasstruggl... In addition to David Swanson's video here, you can also check the links on the right named, "Good sites from other friends and Comrades. Give them a look.
     
    This article is the long but worth a read. http://www.facebook.com/l.php?... 
     
    As UMC members we pride ourselves on Open Minds. An Open mind needs to be one that is also willing and able to engage in critical thinking. Simply saying, "I went to an Occupy protest and met a lot of nice people with valid concerns," is not a mature response to a valid fear that the Occupy Movement is not a God movement.
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  • Dale Lature 4 comments collapsed Collapse Expand
    Why are the trolls allowed to dominate this thread?  Ignore them,  and speak up, folks!  I see a few here, and want to thank Buzz, Nancy, Elizabeth, dmackey, Arix, and Kyrie,  but it was  hard to find them amongst all the right wing nonsense about Marxism and complaints about the "left leaning UMC".  I too have been a couple of times this past month,  and will return again to lend support and logistics (and video coverage,  where I talk wityh people who sound NOTHING AT ALL like the trolls here rattling on about Marxism.  Nonsense.  Get informed,  and until you do,  quit trolling, please.  It's obnoxious and rude to those who want to discuss real issues.  Learn what the real issues are and then come back and see if you can discuss with some knowledge of the specifics.  I am also very encouraged to see mainline denominations starting to pay real attention to this and discern the moment as a way to become involved, concerned citizens. That's the real message of OWS,  that we all have a stake in this.  And we must confront the powers that have brought it to this.
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  • Eric 3 comments collapsed Collapse Expand
    Wow Dale so the OWS is finally going to get specific instead of the general wining about other people having more stuff then them.  So let's get specific.  What exactly are the complaints of OWS?  Who exactly is to blame for there miserable lot in life?  And what exactly is there plan to aleve there suffering?
    You will have to excuse us for believing that the OWS is representing  Marxist and socialist thought but heretofore the only idea that I have heard are to tax the “rich”  (who have not earned it and don’t deserve it) and give it to the people that the occupiers believe do deserve it (mostly themselves).
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  • Dale Lature 2 comments collapsed Collapse Expand
    Eric,  if you just ignore what has already been said...very specific things,  which is what the entire right wing does in order to keep insisting that nothing is being said,  then I'm sure you'll continue to do so.  The main complaint:  that the monied interests in this country have been funneling all the benefits of the economy to the top.  The Wall Street robbers have been allowed to get off scot-free (the people who brought our economy to this).  Enough is enough.  Are you happy that banks and Wall Street investors were able to sell and swindle people based on deceitful ratings of toxic derivatives?  This is why the protest is OccupyWallStreet.  A crime has been perpetrated on the American people.  This is as specific as it needs to be to justify standing up and OCCUPYING and insisting the American people be heard.  If you don't want to join the 99% portion that REALIZES we're all in this together,  then go right ahead.  You're entitled to accepting a pre-packaged "ideology" that deceived you into thinking that the GOP gives a rip about you.  I don't even believe that about the Democrats.   Too many of them have sold out,  and too politically timid to be of much use.  
    All that is required is to ACTUALLY LISTEN to real conversations being given to us now from REAL REPORTING (which means actually talking to participants in various Occupy protest outposts around the country and growing.  Wake up, dude.  LISTEN.  Inform yourself.  Or stay in your Fox-y-gen world and maintain your self-deception.
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  • Eric 1 comment collapsed Collapse Expand
    Well that is slightly more specific, although I’m not sure what a bunch of children, union thugs, community organizers and  burned out hippies yelling “we don’t like you” at Wall Street bankers is going to accomplish.  Do you think your going to hurt there feelings and they will just change there ways, please spare me.  I’m pretty sure there massive compensation packages will assuage any possible guilt they might feel Fist of all no crime was committed, these people played within the rules to make there money.  I and I assume you think that it was dishonest and horrible but it was in fact lawful. This is not the problem, the problem is that when there stupidity became public our government decide that they should not pay for there own failure.  It snowballed from there, AIG, GM. Fannie and Freddie all had to be rescued using money that the Tax Payers had entrusted to our leaders to spend wisely.   Bankers and Business people are predictable they will always do what is best for there business.  Elected leaders are like wise predictable they will always do what is best for them selves.  No one is or ever will look out for the average guy.  Your side thinks the problem is bad businesses, it is not, the problem is bad business coddled by even worse politicians.  If the politicians would allow the market to work all of those Wall Street fat cats you guys are mad at would be unemployed. New and innovative companies would be coming in to take there place, knowing that the price of failure or dishonest business practices was the unemployment line not a massive bail out. This is I suspect where any agreement we may have breaks down.  You think that the solution to all of this more government, that they are somehow going to come in and make things more just and fair.  They will not, they will reward there supporters and punish there detractors, that is how government works.  It doesn’t matter if you put a D or an R after there title, they will use there power to make sure they keep there power and gain more.  Don’t believe me? Read Dodd-Frank it actually codified into law too big to fail and punishes small banks for having the temerity to try to compete (oh and not giving big enough campaign contributions).  Why do you think the five biggest banks in the country supported the bill and wrote huge checks for the supports of the bill reelection fundraising.  The biggest problem with this protest is that it is in the wrong city.  You should not be occupying Wall Street you should be occupying Pennsylvania AV.   Until you deal with the enablers in Washington there is nothing that you can do to change anything on Wall Street. You guys really need to knock it off with this tax the rich stuff; it’s unhelpful and poorly informed.  The vast majority of the “rich” have nothing to do with Wall Street.   I’m not in the top 1% but I’m solidly in the top 3%.  I went to collage on the G.I. bill, started my own business and spent 80 to 100 hours a week building it for over a decade.  I pay a kings ransom in taxes and still manage to generously support my employees my charities and my church.  The last thing that I need to hear is that the government needs more of my hard earned money to waste on the bottomless pit of the latest pet project, if I had wanted a solar panel or a GM car I would have bought one.
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  • Eric 1 comment collapsed Collapse Expand
    The truly sad part is that, just like every despotic movement before it, the useful idiots think that the despots will have a place at the table for them once the killing has ended.  No society has ever been made better by making its people less free, and make no mistake that is exactly what these people are demanding.  In order for them to have what the think they “deserve” they will demand an all powerful government take what others have and give it to them.  A Government strong enough to give you everything you want can just as easily take everything you have.
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  • Eric 1 comment collapsed Collapse Expand
    The greatest dangers to liberty, lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding.
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  • SoldierForChrist 2 comments collapsed Collapse Expand
    Perhaps this article would have been less controversial with a more accurate headline. May I suggest, "Fringe UMC Leaders Endorse Occupy Movement."
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  • MarkWest1 1 comment collapsed Collapse Expand
    May I suggest "UMs join movement to fight corruption in financial industry"?
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  • NancySpeer 1 comment collapsed Collapse Expand
    As a student of the rift between the new consciousness movement, churces and organized religion, the more research I do, the clearer it is to me that many are saying very similar things in their own unique ways. We ALL have so much more in common with one another than in doubt and fear. It is time to release ourselves from the bondage of either/or, dualistic, polarizing viewpoints. If we can hold one another in our hearts, rather than attempting to debate nuances of our differences, if we can stop looking at one another as adversaries, we will all be so much healthier and happier!
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  • buckjim 2 comments collapsed Collapse Expand
    It is odd that this article doesn't discuss how you told these poor delusional souls who have been consistently atheistic, that there is hope found in the gospel and how there is salvation in the blood of Jesus Christ.  I'm concerned that you had this excellent opportunity to minister to these people and explain that they don't have to go to hell.  You quote the gospel of Matthew, but you fail to carry out what Jesus commanded in Matthew 28:19-20 "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you: and lo, I am with you, always even until the end of the age."  What would John Wesley say?
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  • MarkWest1 1 comment collapsed Collapse Expand
    Have you done this, Buckjim? Seems that if you believe what you wrote, you'd hop in your car or get on the train or bus and hightail it over to the closest Occupy site to bring the Gospel to those "poor delusional souls." When you've done that, then come back and comment. Maybe then you'll have something to say.
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  • Elizabeth Palmer 1 comment collapsed Collapse Expand
    As a non-member who attends a UMC regularly, it seems appropriate to me for the church to consider the position of protesters involved in the Occupy Movement.  As Christians, dialogue with those who may not have the same approach to life and beliefs has always been important.  The gulf between rich and poor and the shrinking middle class are important issues of our time.  We need to open our eyes and examine whether the way we have been doing things is moral and just.
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  • revbnnc 1 comment collapsed Collapse Expand
    How about some qualifiers like A Few, Some or a Minority of UMs ... This is sad and a key reason we continue to lose followers of Christ at an alarming rate to more focused denominations.
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  • TheVirginian 2 comments collapsed Collapse Expand


    I am a Methodist pastor in Virginia, please post this response this time!

    I read the article concerning the role the United Methodist
    Church is playing in harbinger of chaos and anarchy called the "Occupy
    Oakland Movement." Pastor Gess is very correct in the command of Jesus
    that is articulated in His admonition found in Matthew 22, "‘You shall love the Lord your God with
    all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38This is the greatest and first
    commandment. 39And a second is like it: ‘You shall
    love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40On these two commandments hang all the
    law and the prophets.'"
    Here we are confronted with loving our neighbor as ourselves.
    Unfortunately we must be cognizant of what constitutes transforming society. In
    Matthew 25 we are challenged with feeding those that are hungry and thirsty,
    being a presence in the lives of those imprisoned and lonely. The question
    asked by His followers was when were you in these conditions? Jesus' response
    suggests He was there with the least of these. The question begging to be
    answered is does this movement and do the followers exemplify people that are
    truly in this condition and what does transform society truly mean.


     


    Most of what I see are people capable of work, any work,
    honest work. The ones I see, albeit on television reports, are ones that want
    more money (greed). Others having graduated from college want jobs consistent
    with what they believe they are now entitled to have and to hold. The problem
    is they blame the wrong folks. Pastor Gess is suggesting America is sinking
    into a pit of materialism and moral corruption. No question she has a point,
    however, she misunderstands what Jesus was attempting to stress in transforming
    society. When Jesus stated this in Matthew 16:18, And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build
    my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. 19I will give you the keys of the
    kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven,
    and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. This
    command from Jesus, 1st) establishes the church, 2nd) establishes Peter as the
    church's first head, and 3rd) set the function of His bride, the church, to
    bring people into a relationship with Him, and send them forth to love their
    neighbors so they may have a relationship with Him. Will that not transform
    society? Once that relationship is effected then good works naturally be the
    result. Loving your neighbor does not mean tear down capitalism in some
    Berriganistic Movement, not close businesses of little entrepreneurs, not
    defecate on the American flag, nor murder the very members of your movement, rather
    build a better environment by bringing those pitiful organizers into a
    relationship with Jesus Christ. I feel quite certain Jesus' admonition was
    bringing people into a relationship with Him and from that relationship a
    better society will emanate.


     


    The idea of social justice is a nebulous holdover concept
    from the 1960's. It assumes there is a pervasive injustice to certain groups of
    people that Christ would label as the "Least of these" are somehow
    caught in a class struggle - ala Marxian thought" - and exploited by the
    rich and powerful. This modern day leftist rhetoric lays open the flaws of
    Marxism that can not control the driving impulses for power and wealth along
    with certain motives of success. The only way is through some despotic government
    control that has proven to be a failed system. Pastor Gess by her own admission
    is looking for a more just society. I ask her to look a failed Cuba.


     


    Gess needs to understand the poor of Jesus' time was far
    different from the poor of today. In fact, the poor of the mainstream of
    America culture is totally different to that of Africa, or First Americans. The
    poor in America are the ones having only one automobile, one cell phone, one
    computer, and one color LCD TV. If I decided, (This has been tried) when I was
    teaching in college, I would take points from some and give them to lower
    scoring students so everyone would receive the same grade, I would be shackled
    to the nearest tree and summarily flogged by the same folks that are wanting
    something for nothing and the Marxists organizing this nonsense.


     


    I believe pastors like Sandy Gess need to reflect more than
    the spirit of the 60's. As a denomination we don't need liberals in the pulpit
    espousing a failed political ideology and focus on bringing folks into a
    relationship with Jesus, becoming that compassionate voice for the struggles of
    those having terrible circumstances, not some radical marcher in the streets.
    This article reflects the very reason the Methodist Church is rapidly
    diminishing in influence and membership. If ever the United Methodist Church
    decides to split, here is the reason; pastors caught up in their misguided
    theology that counters the very people they supposedly serve.  


     


       


     


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  • texastruthrules 1 comment collapsed Collapse Expand
    What's hard to understand is why the far left, Marxist, 60's types are allowed to continue to control the website for the UMC, especially if their are many pastors who disagree. My former TX methodist pastor disagreed with the ideas of collective salvation etc theat he said were appearing in seminary school when he was there. He personally adopted the stance of not wanting to offend anyone and would not speak to the congregation about being lead astray by such ideas. He would only preach "the nice things." I personally felt it was a huge betrayal. It is so sad to think about how many people might lose their chance at salvation because no one in church leadership will take action now. I'm assuming that things might change in the 2012 general conference but that may be wishful thinking. All I can do is point these things out to fellow Methodists and open their eyes. Luckiliy I have left the denomination and found a church whose MAIN thrust is saving souls and honoring God. Many tears have been shed on not realizing this earlier.
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  • Leegrace77 8 comments collapsed Collapse Expand
    My husband and I, both United Methodists in our 70s, attended Occupy in a large Midwestern city about a month ago. The crowd was very diverse - racially and ethnically, also by age. We were happy to see many seniors - our age and older. There were people wearing suits. Let's remember, many are out of jobs now. There were parents with their young children. A pastor, whose affiliation we didn't discern, addressed the crowd. So did many people who had mortgage problems. There was not the slightest hint of anger, from us the occupiers, or from by standers who watched us with curiosity or friendliness. A common, but mistaken belief is that people who occupy stand for something suspicious. Not true. They stand as individuals for many things. Some people wore tee shirts bearing the name of an organization, and some of those were agencies that work to feed the hungry and provide shelter for the homeless. A few passed out flyers regarding events of their organizations. Seemed pretty innocent to us. The point I wish to make is that what Occupy is about being heard. Period. Occupy finally tore the press away from their obsession with pop culture and sensationalism. Now that Occupy has the attention of the press, many grievances are being heard. A concern my husband and I have is how some corporations acted against the public over the last several years. They ran small businesses out, abolished customer service, and finally with the tool of the so-called Citizens United, which allows them to pour untold amounts of money into political campaigns, grabbed more power and supported single minded candidates who had no interest in the public good. Now we feel listened to.
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  • texastruthrules 7 comments collapsed Collapse Expand
    Marxism puts the single minded politicians with no interest in the public good in charge of your life. Read Saul Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals" the "bible" to many of the progressive politicians in charge today. It is dedicated to Lucifer and has an ends justify the means philosophy. You can boycott a corporation but not a government "death panel. "
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  • MarkWest1 6 comments collapsed Collapse Expand
    Rules for Radicals is dedicated to Alinsky's wife Irene. If you're going to try to muddy the conversation, you should be more creative than simply uncorking trite lies like Lucifer and death panels.
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  • texastruthrules 1 comment collapsed Collapse Expand
    I wasn't lying when I said that the book was dedicated to Lucifer. It had an acknowledgement to him. I was mistaken not lying. I am sure as a christian you can forgive me. I was also taking a bit of a shortcut in saying that the government had "death panels".  What I should have explained was that the government has taken control of many of the insurance companies business operations. It is my understanding that they will be setting premiums and coverages. A 15 member comparative effectiveness panel will be determing what treatments are best and covered. Everyone will be required to purchase a gov approved plan and those plans will in my belief will have doctors who agree to abide by the panels decisions all enforced by electronic medical records. This past year a panel decided that Avastin(?) was not cost effective for advanced breast cancer. Will this option not be available for those who may want it? I might call this a death panel- you may not. Last summer Health and Human services decided that ALL policies will have things like free colonoscopies and free birth control. Just as the United Methodist Church does not have unlimited monies from tithes and offerings to pay their heating bills and pay for all the living wages, housing, jobs, etc that the OWS people want, I seriously doubt that insurance companies will have unlimited monies to pay for all treatments for everyone when they have gov mandated fixed costs. I don't believe that I will have the right to buy a high deductible, unlimited benefit policy if I wanted. If someone can't because of government laws get a new, experimental, or expensive treatment even though me or my insurance company wants to pay for it and they die-I call it a death panel. You may not. I am trying to speak the truth. If I am wrong that doesn't mean I'm lying. I have the book "Rules for Radicals to understand the other side- not to use it as my roadmap. Like I say, I am sure as  a Christian you can forgive me. I am trying to speak the truth about the secular world or the church. When Jesus comes back we only have one chance at salvation.
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  • Eric 3 comments collapsed Collapse Expand
    The original text was dedicated to the first rebel "Lucifer"
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  • texastruthrules 1 comment collapsed Collapse Expand
    MarkWest1

    This book was first published in 1971. My version with the acknowledgement to Lucifer is the 1989 edition. Recently when conservatives were talking about the book, it's ties to the left and and how the National Education Association (the teachers union) listed it on their website as (for a time) as their only training manual on advocacy (It's sad that some of our teachers think the ends justify the means rather than the truth is a good role modelfor their students  but that's a different topic- of course the UMC general board also seemed to support the teachers in Wisconson)  the new editions were printed without the page acknowledging Lucifer
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  • MarkWest1 1 comment collapsed Collapse Expand
    "The original text"?  Where did you obtain the original text, as opposed to the published text?
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  • texastruthrules 1 comment collapsed Collapse Expand
    The page after "To Irene" in "Rules for Radicals" says" Lest we forget at least an over the shoulder acknowledgement to the very first radical:from all our legends, Mythology, and history ( and who is to know where mythology leaves off and history begins- or which is which), the first radical known to man who rebelled against the establishment and did it so effectively that he at least won his own kingdom- LUCIFER" - Saul Alinsky

    If you want to try to muddy the conversation with the difference between dedication and acknowledgement you should be more creative.
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  • jimneese 1 comment collapsed Collapse Expand
    America needs profitable corporations to enable us to maintain relegious freedom for all. Do you really think that gov't should provide for those who are unwilling to make an effort to provide for themselves. Just look at Europe. When you have socialized programs churches, relegion and freedom of thought, action, die. Is that what you really thing is good for the people. Is it any wonder that the Methodist church is dieing in America.and all over the world. People should be taught that relegion thrives when it stays out of politics and meets the needs first of its members. That's how it grows and is able to assist the nation and people. Not by attaching others.
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  • rick4169 1 comment collapsed Collapse Expand
    I am a United Methodist pastor in the Texas Conference and have served for over 25 years.  It saddens me that there are any connections between United Methodists (clergy or laity) to the OWS.  The OWS has proven itself to have no constructive aims or course of action.  It is simply a collection of people whose main goal is to whine, destroy property, blame the Jews, attack success, advocate socialism, demand their own way be paid by others who work, and now there have been confirmed rape allegations, a murder nearby that would not have happened without the mess that OWS has created and it is a mess.  They have closed caused people to lose their jobs who work nearby due to the mess.  None of this is godly and to twist this into something Jesus' followers should applaud is an abomination.
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  • TexTime 1 comment collapsed Collapse Expand
    This is why we left the UMC after many years. Marxism is not my idea of social justice. Instead of going after the corrupt, this is being used as the opportunity to destroy our system. It is not the minority of attendees promoting complete revolution and Marxism. One global religion is being promoted, too. To cloak it as anything else is false.
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  • texastruthrules 3 comments collapsed Collapse Expand
    July of 2010 I spoke to my methodist pastor about things going on in society. One question was on the president's belief in collective salvation. He has spoken about it repeatedly and the church he attended for 20 years was based on the teachings of James Cone. His philosophy is that his salvation depends on collective salvation - all white people had to give up all their wealth to black people or no one goes to heaven ( research it - video exists). My pastor said that that line of thinking was in seminary school when he attended in the early 80"s. He personally rejected it. It's sad to think that some pastors may have adopted it. When I see this website supporting communist ideas or linking to Jim Wallis who advocates redistrbution of wealth I get sad thinking about those who may be damned to hell because they were mislead by those from whom they seek the truth.
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  • MarkWest1 2 comments collapsed Collapse Expand
    "...the president's belief in collective salvation. He has spoken about it repeatedly..."  Really? Citations, please.
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  • texastruthrules 1 comment collapsed Collapse Expand
    You could try googling it. Here is one youtube link with three examples of Obama mentioning collective salvation. On the right side they will also show other clips you can view.  

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...
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  • Donnie T 1 comment collapsed Collapse Expand
    If the UMC considers #ows holy, sacred and godly, I want no part of the UMC any longer.
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  • Buzz Trexler 1 comment collapsed Collapse Expand
    The "Occupy" movement has occupied my mind recently, to the point that I finally sat down to compose my thoughts in a column, "Let's Occupy the Kingdom of God for the Sake of All." Check it out if you like, it's not extremely long; if not, suffice it to say that I am a cautious supporter along Kingdom lines.

    http://ripshin.blogspot.com/20...
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  • MUwe 3 comments collapsed Collapse Expand
    I am so thankful for this comments. After reading the article I began thinking I am no longer allowed to call myself methodist because I do really not agree with the occupy movement.
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  • SoldierForChrist 2 comments collapsed Collapse Expand
    MUwe. Please don't be discouraged. This article gives the incorrect impression that the UMC supports the Occupy Movement. The clergy interviewed and the Director of the General Board of Church and Society quoted are a fringe minority. Despite what they say, they do not represent most UMC members. It is a shame that the writer presented such a candy coated, one-sided view of this subject.
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  • texastruthrules 1 comment collapsed Collapse Expand
    How many preachers in United Methodist Churches will be speaking up in front of their congregations and expressing their opposing views to this articles support of OWS? How many will preach about the differences between communism and caring for the poor because you love your neighbor. When a significant percentage of Methodist bishops favor same sex marriage aren't they telling all of their congregants to pick one sin to celebrate in your life? No need to repent for that. The purpose of the church should be to bring people to Christ so they can have eternal life not to gamble with their souls with false teachings just to keep their offering plates full or to fundamentally transform this nation. This is not the first article presented by the fringe minority. If most pastors in the Methodist Church feel that this is not their views then why aren't they speaking up and stopping it? How many souls will be lost before the 2012 general conference?
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  • SoldierForChrist 4 comments collapsed Collapse Expand
    When we join with others because we have something in common we are also providing approval of all the other things they say and do, all the things we would normally never approve of. We sell them our integrity and they gain credibility. When a believer takes the same platform as those who revile the Lord, the Godly person is implicitly endorsing the goals of the unholy. Ahab learned this lesson the hard way (1 Kings 16-20). We can look also to 2 Chron 3: 18-19 and 2 Cor 11:14. There is no shortage of warnings in God's word as to consequences of unholy alliances. Supporting a movement organized by people who despise and deny God and who advocate violence does not please God.
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  • dmackey 3 comments collapsed Collapse Expand
    I can tell that you have never actually gone to an occupy event.  Everyone seems to have a strong contingent of folks attending specifically to support the message of Christ and other scriptural passages that talk about the need to support others, to be fair in dealings, to not cheat others. . . .  Where would you ever get the idea that these events are organized by people that despise and deny God.  And none of them advocate violence in any way.  In most cases that have been documented, any violence has been initiated by members of police forces, or by individuals that have infiltrated the events specifically to create discord and make it appear that violence is the goal to raise opposition.  For example, the anti-occupy "reporter" who blogged about blending in with the group at the Smithsonian and intentionally taking actions to create the police response a few weeks back.  Attend an event for yourself, speak to the folks involved and you will probably find the reality much different that what you have been "told" by others.
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  • SoldierForChrist 1 comment collapsed Collapse Expand
    I did in fact check out Occupy Atlanta two weeks ago. And I don't go by what others tell me. I've seen and read for myself and while most of the protesters may not know it, the movement was started by and continues to be operated by self-professed athiests and Marxists. I'll say it again, check out David Swanson of Occupy D.C. http://october2011.org/organiz... . I also got a flyer at the Atlanta event with the National Manifesto that was on the Occupy Website. In summary it says Corporations are too big and technology too important to be run by private enterprise and should all be taken over by "the people." I've never said the participants as a whole are bad people or that there's not cause for discontent. I've said they are being fooled into believing this is "holy."
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  • texastruthrules 1 comment collapsed Collapse Expand
    These rallies were advocated by union leaders last March. That's when I first heard of them. The idea was to collapse JP Morgan and then the stock market. Let's get a few more people to not pay their student loans and mortgages to punish those on Wall Street. Where is the love of Christ in collapsing the stock market and value of our dollar.  The Arab spring was spurred on by huge increases in the cost of their food (40% of their income) partly because of the declining dollar.  These ideas are more in line with Satan than Christ.  Is it fair in dealings to make the value of one's savings worthless.
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  • SoldierForChrist 1 comment collapsed Collapse Expand
    This article misses an important fact. The OWS organizers are working with David Swanson of the Occupy D.C. movement. The organizers of BOTH are declared Marxists. Before any more UMC clergy get excited to join in consider the following. When we join with others because we have something in common we are also providing approval of all the other things they say and do, all the things we would normally never apporove of. We sell them our integrity and they gain credibility. When a believer takes the same platform as those who revile the Lord, the Godly person is implicitly endorsing the goals of the unholy. Ahab learned this lesson the hard way (1 Kings 16-20). We can look also to 2 Chron 3: 18-19 and 2 Cor 11:14. There is no shortage of warnings in God's word as to consequences of unholly alliances. Supporting a movement organized by people who despise and deny God and who advocate violence does not please God. The General Board of Church and Society is once again on the wrong side.
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  • Ronald Doub 2 comments collapsed Collapse Expand
    Mayby the church folks should address the violence anti-Semitism.
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  • PaulAhearn 1 comment collapsed Collapse Expand
    Absolutely, as our Pope did eloquently in recent years.  The rift between Jews and Christians is rather sad, as God was completely in control during the crucifixtion and resurection.  Lets remember not to lift up victimization; rather to acknowledge, forgive, and move on with Jesus.
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  • kentsvendsen 1 comment collapsed Collapse Expand
    I was very concerned at the comment made by a pastor in the report who said she "speak(s) on behalf of our spiritual leader, Jesus the Christ". So does that mean that if I disagree with her I'm a heritic or somehow my voice is not valid. As a United Methodist we pride ourselves on inclusiveness and pluralism which means I will never claim that God is only on my side of any issue. I've followed the protests and have dialogued with a number of people involved and found a lot I object to. As an ordained United Methodist Elder my personal stand is that while many within the protests have good hearts and want to help people the way they are going at it is wrong. I would cringe to think that anyone would think that involvement within this movement and displaying the United Methodist cross and flame at the gatherings would cause people to think that support of the events are the offical stand of our denomination. If it is our official stand then please let me know so I can start my own protest movement against such a stand.
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    (Edited by a moderator)

  • Rich Buckley 3 comments collapsed Collapse Expand
    Finally, the UMC is waking up to the significance of Occupy Wall Street. http://tinyurl.com/3fa94u8
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  • SoldierForChrist 2 comments collapsed Collapse Expand
    The significance of this movement is that the organizers want to replace our free market economy (Capitalism) with a government controlled economy ( Marxism / Socialism). And judging by the quotes from our UMC leaders supporting this, they're all for it.
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  • dmackey 1 comment collapsed Collapse Expand
    Again- your comments show that you have not really had any interaction with the movement.  While there may be a few Marxist/socialist/anarchists among the crowds, the majority of of Occupiers are not seeking such things.  What they are seeking is a return to an intelligent economic situation in which all people have the opportunity to succeed if they work hard.  

    The reality is that due to the undue influence of a few, that has been becoming farther and farther from reality for many for several decades.  The economic analyses all show that as deregulation has increased, the relative wealth of the few at the top has disproportionately increased, removing more and more wealth for the overall nation into the hands of fewer and fewer.  Meanwhile, regulations have been changed which have led to those same folks that are benefiting so much, not returning a "fair" share to the overall economy.  For example - if your overall share of the wealth has gone up to 40%, should you not be responsible for 40% of the costs? - clearly that is how much your benefits are. Why should those that continue to have and accumulate more, receive subsidies and tax breaks when they clearly are not needed (see for example the oil industry posting record profits).  Why, as in an argument I heard a few days ago, should we do away with the EPA and environmental regulations to benefit some corporations?  They claim it would create more jobs, but in reality there are entire industries that have developed over the last 40 years doing the work that the EPA mandates.  Doing away with such regulations would actually end up costing 10s of thousands of jobs (and everything those folks contribute to the economy) - resulting in even greater unemployment rather than creating jobs.  The only financial benefit that such actions would result in would be greater profits to those that run the corporations - while at the same time resulting in a greater potential to damage God's wonderful creation - damage that will once again take decades, if not generations, to overcome, if at all.

    These are not the concern of Marxists, but rather of people that want America to return to the land of the American Dream that it once was, were all have the opportunity to succeed through honest work, not through unfair advantages
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  • crodenberg 12 comments collapsed Collapse Expand
    We need a religious awakening in the world and realize that we should depend on God, not the government. We as Christians should be taking care of the poor as we do at my church. Our lobbying for more government spending when the government has to borrow 40 of every dollar they spend is creating the problem. We need to get out of Washington, quit supporting the communist OWS activities and violence and return to having our churches work for the poor. Removing government restrictions will let companies grow and hire people. Methodists should lobby their representatives not have an office in DC.
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  • ubuntunow 1 comment collapsed Collapse Expand
    What if Adam Smith's "invisible hand" were the Holy Spirit? Seems to me we need to quit worshipping the bronze bull of Wall St. The markets are not some blind and benevolent force that operate independently of our human condition.
    The church has a prophetic responsibility to confront the Powers and their structures, this includes government and private sectors, when their workings result in sickening inequities the world over. Even a casual glance through the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament shows that God has always been concerned with economic activity between his beloved children. It is very clear throughout Scripture that God puts first those that humanity rejects and renders vulnerable.
    When our structures ( including the government) are fallen, as they are, we as church are called to confront them and call them back into step with God's will for the world.
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  • Arix 10 comments collapsed Collapse Expand
    OWS is not a communist movement.  No they do not want pure capitalism but pure capitalism is what has caused our economic downturn.  We need a mix of capitalism and socialism.  This has shown to work very well and is what the OWS protestors are calling for.  Lack of governmental regulations on corporations is what has caused the recession.  It is not a good idea to have no regulations.  That leads to a lack of unions, a lack of minimum wage and poor working conditions.  I don't think you fully understand what qualifies as a regulation.
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  • SoldierForChrist 9 comments collapsed Collapse Expand
    Arix. I've posted the information. Do your homework. The Occupy organizers don't want the "mix of capitalism and socialism" that you say you want. Goodness sake Brother, we've alraedy got that. They are calling for a Marxist Revolution. Study 150 years of Marxist revolutions and tell me one that didn't create violence, bloodshed and loss of religious freedom. Join this movement if you want, but don't think for a minute that just because some fringe UMC leaders say it's God's work, makes it so.
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  • Jim Little 2 comments collapsed Collapse Expand
    Dear SoldierForChrist: I am a United Methodist member becoming more and more discouraged by the Methodist leadership. I served in the US navy for 30 years deploying to Vietnam five times and proudly defended this country while many in my generation where cowardly hiding behind false premises. Many in my veteran groups say "this is not the country I fought for"...sadly those who support the "Occupy Movement" have lost their way, and you and Texas4Rules and Virginian are the only ones speaking the truth of Christ on this page. Many of the occupy movement are the same cowards of the 60's...who should examine thier motives, perhaps trying to regain the self-respect they now realize they lost in the past? Keep praying for those who are in positions of leadership...Jesus said in Mark 10:42-44-The Chief must be servant of all....they are not serving the majority of Methodist. If it were scriptually correct John W. would be revoling in his grave!
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  • texastruthrules 1 comment collapsed Collapse Expand
    Thank you for your service.
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  • Dale Lature 2 comments collapsed Collapse Expand
    For crying out loud, SFC,  just because someone doesn't have the same theology as you do doesn't make them an atheist,  which is the same kind of argument you're making by calling the OWS movement "Marxist".  Just because they don't share your ideology about economics doesn't make them Marxist.  They want to see things improved,  and the wealthy who keep this system in place do NOT want that.  They are benefiting from this setup.  It has to be confronted.  Defending "the American way" is not the same as devoting one's self to the Kingdom of God.  American economics and systems can go wrong.  When it reaches the  heights  of injustice we are now seeing,  it is a citizen's duty to stand with the people,  whom the government is pledged to serve.
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  • SoldierForChrist 1 comment collapsed Collapse Expand
    I've posted links to the organizers' own websites. They say they are athiests and that they are calling for a Marixist revolution. These aren't people most Christian's want to stand with. But, for the time being, it's a free country. Stand with whoever you want.
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  • dmackey 2 comments collapsed Collapse Expand
    " 21 Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be perfect, go, sell your possessions, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me."
     22 When the young man heard this word, he went away grieving, for he had many possessions.
     23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly I tell you, it will be hard for a rich person to enter the kingdom of heaven."  (Mat 19:21-23 NRS)

    43 Awe came upon everyone, because many wonders and signs were being done by the apostles.  44 All who believed were together and had all things in common;   45 they would sell their possessions and goods and distribute the proceeds to all, as any had need.  (Act 2:43-45 NRS)
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  • texastruthrules 1 comment collapsed Collapse Expand
    Why did Jesus say it was hard for a rich man to go to heaven? I believe it is because they have to make the decision in their heart that following Jesus and not the false idols of their posessions was most important. It said sell your posessions and give to the poor. That is a personal action. Would it be so hard for them to go to heaven if the torches and pitchfork people took it or if they got a governemtn to go in and take it. Does this cause the heart change necessary for salvation in the rich person. Does this cause the heart change necessary for salvation in the poor or OWS protester when their coveting of their neighbors belongings and bearing of false witnesses is rewarded?
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  • Kyrie Alberigi 2 comments collapsed Collapse Expand
    Sir, I've been to a march in San Francisco, and talked with teachers, students, grandparents, and parents who were there. Arix has it right. Except for a few fringe Occupiers, a majority don't hate capitalism, nor do they want a Marxist/Communism country. They want to get rid of the
    "Crony-Capitalism", where a few greedy CEOs basically run the government by bribing officials in the House and Senate.
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  • Steven Southwell 1 comment collapsed Collapse Expand
    Plenty of United Methodists do still beleive in the polictical and economic doctrines of free enterprise upon which our nation has been based for centuries.  Our societal problems stem more from a moral bankruptcy driven by the acceptance of moral relativism than problems with our capitalist economic structure.  Without the ability to profit there would be no opportunity for charitable giving of time and monetary resources.  If these folks would go do something to help those in need instead of hanging out and polluting the cities, someone might actually be positivley impacted.  The church would be wise to distance itself from this movement rather than trying to score cheap "relevance points" by running a PR piece for this thin movement.
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  • theospilot 1 comment collapsed Collapse Expand


    It was hard to even finish reading this article.  This
    has to be a new LOW for the UMC.  "We" identify with a bunch of
    folks many of whom are obviously mentally ill in their ranting conversation.  People who cannot take responsibility for
    their own lives and think others should pay for their college education
    or pay back their loans!  They can't construct a finished thought or even
    stop stealing from and groping each other.  I love how our clergy, of whom
    I am one, try to dress up a sow's ear.  I think it is more the other end
    of the sow.  I was a veteran of the protests of the 60's and 70's, but I
    grew up and got over that foolishness.  And this mess could not hold a
    candle to the quality of those folks from back then.  Surely we have a
    death wish as a denomination if we are seeking to connect ourselves with this
    mess.  I realize this is a liberally slanted article with no balance or dissenting
    voices quoted anywhere but to make it seem Wesley would approve shows no
    knowledge of Wesley.  Wesley would have driven the bulldozer to clean the
    place up.  But he might have waited until
    preaching a sermon on repentance first.


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